Can IE compete on a level playing field?

[Daniel ~]

Mozilla may have problems with its Firefox browser, but they pale in comparison to the specter now haunting Microsoft's Internet Explorer:

A level playing field.

[Front page...]

[chrisbard]

"Yet another Microsoft bashing article from Matt... I think this is the 4th one this week.

Hey Matt, if you complain about Microsoft bundling IE with Windows,
why don't you write about Apple bundling Safari with OSX?
And how Google bundles Chrome with Chrome OS and Android?
And how Apple bundles Safari with iphone OS?

AND how Apple does not even ALLOW DEVELOPERS TO EVEN DEVELOP (let alone distribute) A COMPETING BROWSER for iphone?

And you somehow claim that it is Microsoft that is playing unfair?

I know this has nothing to do with you being the COO of a company competing with Microsoft. You wouldn't be so unethical to use your column that is supposed to be open source to bash your competitor (four times a week), would you?"

As for me I tried most of the browsers out there I like latest Opera but IE works with everypage with no problems while everyother browser snaps now and then. for Microsoft !

[cloasters]

It's difficult to rebut your argument. May I ask, are you a major shareholder of MS? Just asking!

[Gizmo]

Originally Posted by chrisbard

As for me I tried most of the browsers out there I like latest Opera but IE works with everypage with no problems while everyother browser snaps now and then. for Microsoft !

I realize from your perspective this doesn't really matter, but from the perspective of people who develop websites for a living, IE creates a pervasive pain in my arse. Why?

Because every version of IE up to and including IE 8 persists in NOT adhering to web standards. Granted, IE 8 is much better than, e.g. IE 6 at this, but it still has issues, especially with some CSS3 effects that virtually every other browser with any significant market share has support for. To make matters worse, in many cases IE actually supports the 'feature' that CSS3 implements, but does it in a proprietary "Microsoft Only" way. As a consequence, when I code a web site, I'm still faced with the following choices:

1. Code specifically to take advantage of IE's proprietary features, and let the rest of the browser world fall as it may
2. Code to the web standards that EVERY OTHER BROWSER ON THE MARKET SUPPORTS, and let the IE users suffer.
3. Double my work-load and make one version that is specific to IE (and worse, STILL have to choose which VERSION of IE to code for, and IE 6/7/8 all have different idiosyncrasies), and another version for everyone else.

Because of the fact that Microsoft STILL have 2/3 of the browser market (depending on who you talk to), I am forced to either alienate 2/3 of my potential audience or code to Microsoft's vision of the world.

Microsoft are not just the dominant operating system vendor, they are a de-facto monopoly; when Microsoft sneezes, the entire computer industry gets a cold. It is neither fair nor reasonable for one company to have such a hold on such a large industry. Does this mean that Microsoft are being required to do things that other competitors in the market don't? Absolutely. By virtue of their sheer dominance in the market, there is no other way to give other alternatives a chance to gain a foothold other than just pure luck.

The argument about Google/Apple distributing their browser in their O/S is irrelevant and in fact a red herring. Last I checked, Apple held by far the largest market share of non-MS operating systems on the desktop, and they were barely a blip on the radar screen (still less than 10%, last I knew). In addition, the old "Apple won't let anyone else put a browser on the iPhone" is flatly false; a quick Google reveals at least 6 available through the Apple store (here's a link to a nice little review. I found that and I don't even own an iPhone. While it IS true that Apple won't let anyone provide a browser that isn't based on Webkit, it is ALSO true that Webkit is open source, meaning that ANYONE can contribute to its development, and it's not controlled by Apple.

As far as Google, yes they are a huge company with substantial resources, but they have virtually NO presence as of yet in the operating system market. And, oh yeah, their whole stack is open source.

[chrisbard]

On the other hand most consumers aren't aware of the other side of the story, so they will keep using the browser thats working best for their interest, beeing Firefox, Chrome or IE or whatever browser they come across.

[Gizmo]

Originally Posted by chrisbard

On the other hand most consumers aren't aware of the other side of the story, so they will keep using the browser thats working best for their interest, beeing Firefox, Chrome or IE or whatever browser they come across.

That's the whole point, Chris. IE is a LOUSY browser from a technical standpoint. Yet it has over 2/3 of the market, for ONE reason: it comes with Windows. One could very effectively argue that IE is in fact the browser that is the LEAST suited to the user's best interest.

Web development stagnated for about 5 YEARS because of IE 6 and the fact that MS wouldn't do anything to update it.

Was that in the user's interest? Or was it more in Microsoft's interest?

The ONLY reason we aren't STILL on IE 6 is because of the governments of the world requiring Microsoft to make the other browsers in the market at least a little more accessible. Microsoft has ZERO interest in developing IE as a product because IT DOESN'T MAKE THEM MONEY.

The only reason Microsoft finally got serious about security is because they were starting to lose significant market share in the server space to Linux, and could see that they were in danger of losing share to Linux and Apple on the desktop (far more likely to Apple) because of all the viri infesting Windows machines. Microsoft has ZERO interest in developing a secure OS because IT DOESN'T MAKE THEM MONEY.

Wake up and smell the coffee, dude! MS doesn't give a tinker's damn about you! All they care about is if they can extract money from you. MS kicks you and beats you at every turn, and you come crawling back saying "Please sir, can I have some more?"

Look, if you need to use MS products in order to perform your daily work, I get that. Some things, there's no way around. But don't forget that your relationship with MS is completely adversarial; MS will service your needs only so long as doing so makes them a profit. They aren't your friend, they aren't your pal. When you have a problem they'll be glad to help you, for only $39.95 per call (more if they need to bring in a support engineer). And when servicing your needs ceases to be profitable to them, there will be no remembrance of past history, or how you've been a good and loyal customer; It'll be "There's the door, don't let it hit you in the butt on the way out."

Oh Dear Lord, I'm starting to sound like Daniel ~

[Daniel ~]

Originally Posted by chrisbard

"Yet another Microsoft bashing article from Matt... I think this is the 4th one this week.

Hey Matt, if you complain about Microsoft bundling IE with Windows,
why don't you write about Apple bundling Safari with OSX?
And how Google bundles Chrome with Chrome OS and Android?
And how Apple bundles Safari with iphone OS?

AND how Apple does not even ALLOW DEVELOPERS TO EVEN DEVELOP (let alone distribute) A COMPETING BROWSER for iphone?

And you somehow claim that it is Microsoft that is playing unfair?

I know this has nothing to do with you being the COO of a company competing with Microsoft. You wouldn't be so unethical to use your column that is supposed to be open source to bash your competitor (four times a week), would you?"

As for me I tried most of the browsers out there I like latest Opera but IE works with everypage with no problems while everyother browser snaps now and then. for Microsoft !

Sounds like you don't think IE can... me neither Chris! I'm with you. Great that the other browsers have catered to OS's other than the one that cost money Hey!! ":O}